tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post448119760650043176..comments2023-07-09T11:23:36.355-04:00Comments on On Baseball & The Reds: More on Dusty Bakerjinazhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07697776280178146413noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-38327551500461576222007-10-18T10:59:00.000-04:002007-10-18T10:59:00.000-04:00Justin, I wasn't clear--I was saying, in general, ...Justin, I wasn't clear--I was saying, in general, all the bereaved fan yap about Baker's so-called rap sheet that many bloggers and fans have used as attack fodder. If they would just look closer. It's just not hard.<BR/><BR/>And as you mentioned, since you're looking deeper-- which isn't hard, mind you--can be proven as myths. <BR/><BR/>I anticipate the report with above-average curiosity!Mr. Redlegshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08162758613046266592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-25219984733329225952007-10-18T02:19:00.000-04:002007-10-18T02:19:00.000-04:00Hi Mr. Redlegs,I'm not entirely sure who you're ad...Hi Mr. Redlegs,<BR/><BR/>I'm not entirely sure who you're addressing with the comments about not doing general searches, but I don't think we've really been unfairly on the attack regarding baker's blocking of young players in any of the comments on this blog. Granted, I may not have done more than a b-ref lookup when chris mentioned Choi and Patterson, but as you'll see over the coming week with this player value series I've been working on, I've been doing my share of research on other issues of late. :D <BR/><BR/>On the issue of player blockage, I'm relying mostly on Shawn's recaps at his blog to evaluate those claims. And through part three, I have to say that I'm not seeing a huge trend against youth on Baker teams, except that his GMs tended to trade away youth and get veterans in return. You'll find a few cases where someone never got a chance, but it doesn't look more common on Baker clubs as it has with the Reds over the past several years.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, Lee was acquired for Choi, right? So I'm not sure what Lee has to do with anything related to Choi's playing time in Chicago, except that he's the reason that Choi left. Obviously the fact that Choi didn't work out in Florida or LA after a season with Baker can't all be his fault, as I said above. <BR/><BR/>I certainly have my reservations about Baker, as I've cited in my posts on him. But I haven't seen much evidence yet that he has an exceptional tendency to block young talent.<BR/>-jjinazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07697776280178146413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-9924073670386966752007-10-18T01:29:00.000-04:002007-10-18T01:29:00.000-04:00Yes, and the other thing about Choi--and again, th...Yes, and the other thing about Choi--and again, this is a fairly routine search . . . the Cubs got this guy named Lee in '04, and a dude who hits around 30 bombs, drives in around 100, plays Gold Glove defense and is just 29, well, he's gonna play over the sputtering kid.<BR/><BR/>It's like the argument that the Cubs sucked in '05-'06 and Dusty is a bum because of it. I've been trying to compile the number of injuries, DL uses and player games lost to DL those two years. It's beyond staggering.<BR/><BR/>When most people just look at the team numbers for tthose years and see all the vets playing, they scream it's because Dusty is an idiot and won't develop youngsters.<BR/><BR/>For one, you have to have youngsters to develop who are ready for the big leagues. For another, when a grenade lands in your clubhouse, someone has to play. There's no choice. And most times veterans make up the core of your bench depth.Mr. Redlegshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08162758613046266592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-37605897491725862472007-10-17T23:57:00.000-04:002007-10-17T23:57:00.000-04:00Also, while I'm sure that you did hear something l...Also, while I'm sure that you did hear something like this from others, I don't think I ever argued that Eddie's development would be killed. Just that it might be slowed. My argument was that the potential payoffs to getting him back on track prior to next season outweighed any short term problems with his performance...because, again, we were well out of the pennant race.<BR/>-jjinazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07697776280178146413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-39785509640947459622007-10-17T23:53:00.000-04:002007-10-17T23:53:00.000-04:00Dave,Two big differences between the situation wit...Dave,<BR/><BR/>Two big differences between the situation with Eddie and the Choi/Karros situations.<BR/><BR/>1. The Cubs were in a pennant race in '03, which they ultimately won. Therefore, player development is much less important than putting the team on the field that can give you the best chance of winning that each night. The '07 Reds, by July, were far enough out of it that player development should have been the primary goal.<BR/><BR/>2. Keppinger was playing well above anything you could reasonably expect from him given his previous performances. This was a 27-year old (i.e. not likely to further improve) guy with a 0.420 career minor league SLG, and he was slugging well over 0.500 at the time. So there was no reasonable expectation that he could continue his torrid pace (I'd suggest that his September slugging of 0.372 may be showing what we can more reasonably expect of him).<BR/><BR/>With Karros, however, you had a guy with a long track record of success, even though he was in the declining phase of his career. Splitting time between he and Choi seems like a very appropriate thing to do, especially in a pennant race.<BR/><BR/>FWIW, Eddie had a pretty nice second half, eh?<BR/>-jjinazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07697776280178146413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-63212819947693581832007-10-17T22:41:00.000-04:002007-10-17T22:41:00.000-04:00"As for Choi, he's kind of an enigma. In his year ..."As for Choi, he's kind of an enigma. In his year with Chicago, he certainly lost some playing time to Eric Karros. But at the same time, Karros had a decent (though not great) season. And one part-time year won't kill a kid's development, will it? Choi didn't stick with the Marlins or Dodgers either, despite hitting reasonably well."<BR/><BR/>In late July/early August I felt that Keppinger had earned the starting third base job. He was clearly outplaying Edwin Encarnacion at the time. That was met with equal parts laughter and derision on every message board on which I suggested same. EdE absolutely HAD to play every day. Now I read that one part-time year won't kill a kid's development. Everyone and their brother seemed to think it would kill EdE's development. C'est la vie.texasdavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215541522980498371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-38101908890987682662007-10-17T19:22:00.000-04:002007-10-17T19:22:00.000-04:00Thanks for that info, it's helpful. If nothing el...Thanks for that info, it's helpful. If nothing else, it's certainly an explanation that needs to be considered when trying to understand what happened with that guy. Choi did hit reasonably well in subsequent seasons when given playing time, but he certainly never lived up to the potential everyone thought he had. <BR/><BR/>Maybe I should have looked closer into that history...but then again, I wasn't claiming that Baker ruined the guy either! :D<BR/>-jjinazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07697776280178146413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-55095622198526406662007-10-17T19:16:00.000-04:002007-10-17T19:16:00.000-04:00Choi was in a horrific collision in 2003, had a ca...Choi was in a horrific collision in 2003, had a career-threatening concussion, lost his starting position and has never fully recovered.<BR/><BR/>That's a perfect example of what I mean by doing the homework--looking harder and deeper--than the surface numbers, and making wild-haired deductions.Mr. Redlegshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08162758613046266592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-41286053560544163652007-10-17T14:10:00.000-04:002007-10-17T14:10:00.000-04:00@Mr. Redlegs - Thanks!! -j@Mr. Redlegs - Thanks!! -jjinazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07697776280178146413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-63219298598951422912007-10-17T14:05:00.000-04:002007-10-17T14:05:00.000-04:00Well, I didn't pay much attention to them at the t...Well, I didn't pay much attention to them at the time, so I have no personal observations to rely on.<BR/><BR/>In Patterson's case, however, it seems like he got a pretty damn fair shake. Here's some stats on him:<BR/><BR/>year G AB OPS+<BR/>2003 83 329 116<BR/>2004 157 631 92<BR/>2005 126 451 56<BR/><BR/>Anyone who gets 451 AB's in a season in which hits for a 56 OPS+ is getting plenty of opportunities...and he played almost every game in '04. He's just never been able to put all his talents together.<BR/><BR/>As for Choi, he's kind of an enigma. In his year with Chicago, he certainly lost some playing time to Eric Karros. But at the same time, Karros had a decent (though not great) season. And one part-time year won't kill a kid's development, will it? Choi didn't stick with the Marlins or Dodgers either, despite hitting reasonably well. <BR/><BR/>I wanted the Reds to go after him in '06, but he ultimately washed out in AAA with Boston that season (0.207/0.347/0.361). Maybe this is a case where scouts or coaches saw something about his skills or his makeup that the stats didn't..?<BR/>-jjinazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07697776280178146413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-33524594119701636272007-10-17T12:50:00.000-04:002007-10-17T12:50:00.000-04:00Baker made an oblique, but valid (IMO) point about...Baker made an oblique, but valid (IMO) point about the SF situation. Something to the effect that "it's the same way now." Which is true. Brian Sabean is probably the reason the Giants were/are always full of veteran players. If anything, they're even older now than they were with Baker.<BR/><BR/>Now, does that get Dusty off the hook for the Chicago era? Would another manager have been able to develop Patterson and Choi into something, or were they just overhyped all along? Was it a coincince that Marmol flourished after Baker left? <BR/><BR/>It sure <I>felt</I> like Baker was screwing around with those guys at the time, but I'm eager to learn whether my observations had any merit. The causal questions are ultimately impossible to answer, but I'm interested to hear what Doug and others find out.Chris at Redleg Nationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474147423587094139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23241716.post-10130739560346489992007-10-17T10:30:00.000-04:002007-10-17T10:30:00.000-04:00Just wanted to say you've done some excellent work...Just wanted to say you've done some excellent work during the Baker Tribulations, presenting balanced analyses and interesting, non-traditional viewpoints.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the terrific work and always, always stay on the fence of objectivity when overviewing the ol' Redlegs, and your site will continue to grow!Mr. Redlegshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08162758613046266592noreply@blogger.com